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An unofficial guide to developing a career in jazz and creative music: from 20 Women To The Fore interviews
Tamsin Curror, writer of our Women to the Fore series, shares wisdom and advice from twenty women across the European jazz and creative music landscape.
Over the course of EJN's Women to the Fore series, I’ve spoken to twenty leading women working across the breadth of Europe’s creative music sector. Women from different countries, different disciplines, and at different points in their careers.
In these wide-ranging conversations, we talked about many aspects of their lives and careers. You can read some of the broad themes that emerged in this article.
Revisiting the interviews for this year’s International Women’s Day, we are sharing the advice our interviewees offer those at the start of their careers.
Whether you're a musician, or you want to run a festival one day, or you are trying to figure out how to build a life in music, here’s what they shared.
1. Learn by doing - no job is too small
Many of the women we spoke to in behind-the-scenes roles started as volunteers and interns.
Pelin Opcin, Director of Programming at EFG London Jazz Festival, says: "In a nutshell, no job is too big or small and no question is a stupid question… On-the-job training is so important.” She adds, "If you want to be on this trajectory, start as a volunteer. And then you can get paid work backstage or in event production, and you will learn the skills, gain the behind-the-scenes knowledge and meet people."
Ragnhild Menes, Director of Kongsberg Jazzfestival, agrees: "No jobs are too small. Take all opportunities to get experience. Talk to people and never stop being curious about the music - that's very important.”
This can present challenges with income, which Danielle Oosterop, a booking agent, acknowledges: "Financially, it's really hard to start… So maybe do it a few days a week to start with, alongside another job."
Sound engineer Nóra Szalóki started by doing sound for a band without any relevant experience and improved over time, later completing a vocational course alongside hands-on work. "Becoming a really good sound engineer needs hard work, lots of studying, tons of blood, sweat and tears, but in the end it's worth it!"
"You can't start from the top”, says Annamaija Saarela, CEO of Livelaboratorio Tampere, “so create your own path and be capable of doing multiple roles… Avoid a narrow focus. You have to understand how it all works."
2. Build your network — and give as much as you take
Building relationships is described as essential at every level and in every role. Pelin Opcin advises: "Remember every single person you meet and keep in contact and value those relationships."
Although much contact is by email and messaging now, in-person relationships are still key. “When I first met organisers in person, it started to click - ideas flowed, networks grew,” says agent Malwina Witkowska. She adds: “Have good relationships with everyone, don't think someone is above or below you. Be kind to everyone - you can't do this work by yourself, it's work with people, collaborations, mutual connections.”
Networks, both formal and informal, are also a source of mutual support. Nadin Deventer advises people to "build up a good network - we need to support each other and to be there for each other as this is a lifelong journey." She says it was her international network that gave her the courage to go for it as artistic director for JazzFest Berlin.
“Many people understand networking to be about what they can gain from it, but networking is about give and take", points out jazz PR, Judith Kobus. Being well-networked can also help with problem-solving and learning. Annamaija Saarela describes the benefits: “The best way to learn about new music, about how to develop your project, is to listen to your peers… everyone brings different strengths and knowledge to share, and I can give back some of my learning and skills too.”
As a young professional, Malwina Witkowska echoes this: "Find all the programmes, talk to people, make connections and friendships. And ask for advice, it's crucial to learn from more experienced people."
Curator and producer Martel Ollerenshaw has designed talent development programmes, and is clear about their value: "They help demystify the sector and give artists the opportunities and networks they need to build a sustainable career. It's a long-term investment in artists and their creative practice and involves lots of talking, sharing information and building relationships.”
3. Be bold. Fail better.
The creative music world can be tough. Our interviewees encourage young people to develop a thick skin, not to take setbacks personally, to learn from failure and to keep going. Janine Irons, co-founder of Tomorrow's Warriors, sets out a clear imperative: "Be bold, be fearless, be a warrior!”
"Just go for it,” adds Malwina Witkowska. “Try it out and don't be afraid to fail. I failed a lot, and I'm still learning. That's how you learn best..." Manager and booking agent, Amelie Salembier, advises: "Face all the difficulties when they come. Don't push them back, as later it becomes more difficult to deal with. That's a valuable lesson for life too."
Nadin Deventer has a specific request for all of us: "Let's talk more about our failures. We only hear about the success stories, but we can learn so much by sharing our failures, too. I learned so much from the struggles I faced and am still facing."
Ragnhild Menes reflects on how gender conditioning can come into play: "Get rid of that 'good girl syndrome.' Don't care so much about what others might think. Don't be so afraid of failing. Don't stop having fun with what you do. I have to keep reminding myself of this advice even today. I wish someone had said this to me 20 years ago."
4. Find your voice
For artists, one theme above all others runs through these interviews: know who you are musically and develop something that is genuinely your own.
"Try to find your musical voice, something that is unique to you," says Sunna Gunnlaugs. Sun-Mi Hong goes further: "Standing strong and knowing who you are is so important. Don't try to be different, but really try to be you. It sounds similar, but it's a completely different thing.” She continues: “ Musicians want to be special and want to be recognised as soon as possible, but the most important thing is to develop your own personal colour, and that is a difficult but rewarding journey."
Anneleen Boehme describes what it took to get there: "For a very long time, I've tried to fit in and be cool and make jazz that was hip. But ultimately it didn't work for me. The only thing that works for me is to write and play whatever comes out of me."
This means resisting external pressures. Julie Campiche is direct about this: "Don't create for the algorithm." Janine Irons says: “Be as good as you can be and always be true to yourself. Be authentic, don’t be driven by the market.” Joanna Duda advises: "Don't get sucked into all the social media and don't decide your value is about how many followers you have. Remember your core purpose, and keep doing it, no matter what."
Rita Marcotulli, whose career has spanned decades, puts it simply: "Play everything! There shouldn't be any discrimination of music genres." Nikki Iles shares a similar idea: "Be very open about music. It might not be jazz that informs your jazz."
The power of authenticity is important to those who aren’t artists too. Malwina Witkowska talks about building her agency on her own terms: "I'm trying to be myself in an industry that's been shaped in a certain way for years... I want to work from my heart. So it's challenging when people don't value my ideas like they might from a male agent. But once they understand my values and passion for these artists... that changes their perspective."
5. Be patient, stay curious
Nobody arrives overnight. Danielle Oosterop is honest about the early days of building a career as an agent: "Be patient because it really takes a while before you actually have results.” Malwina Witkowska adds, "As a booking agent, you rarely get instant replies to your emails, and it takes time to build your network… If you work hard for something, it will eventually work out.”
Rita Marcotulli, whose career has spanned decades, believes that "you never arrive. The more you play, the more you know that you don't know anything. Because it's infinite and it's incredible."
Being infinitely curious about the music, and about what you don't yet know, comes up repeatedly. As Annamaija Saarela puts it: "Above all, be curious. You have to be curious about the music and the field you are working in."
Joanna Duda has an unexpected method for staying curious: "An unusual way that I find inspiration is going to a concert of a band that you're not a fan of. Surprisingly, this can provide more inspiration than the other way around. If I hear musical clichés, it makes me think, what would I do to make this music more interesting to me? Somehow, it releases a creative process in me."
6. Finally…
Nadin Deventer brings together much of our interviewees’ advice in her exhortation to: "Think big and fly high, find your voice and be different, take a stand and responsibility, challenge yourself and others, take risks, and embrace the risk to fail and fail better next time.”
And as a caveat, Mingo Rajandi says. "I think that you can't give advice to anyone who isn't ready to take the advice... When we are young, it's just impossible to understand some things if you haven't personally been through a certain number of experiences, whether they are failures or crises..."
"Instead”, she adds, “ask young people questions, and make them think about what they want, get them to visualise their dreams, analyse themselves and the reality. If you're asked a question, then you're forced to go deep inside yourself and answer that question for yourself."
Perhaps that's the starting point. Ask yourself the big questions about what you want and why. And the rest follows from that.
Discover more:
Over the course of EJN's Women to the Fore series, I’ve spoken to twenty leading women working across the breadth of Europe’s creative music sector. Women from different countries, different disciplines, and at different points in their careers.
In these wide-ranging conversations, we talked about many aspects of their lives and careers. You can read some of the broad themes that emerged in this article.
Revisiting the interviews for this year’s International Women’s Day, we are sharing the advice our interviewees offer those at the start of their careers.
Whether you're a musician, or you want to run a festival one day, or you are trying to figure out how to build a life in music, here’s what they shared.
1. Learn by doing - no job is too small
Many of the women we spoke to in behind-the-scenes roles started as volunteers and interns.
Pelin Opcin, Director of Programming at EFG London Jazz Festival, says: "In a nutshell, no job is too big or small and no question is a stupid question… On-the-job training is so important.” She adds, "If you want to be on this trajectory, start as a volunteer. And then you can get paid work backstage or in event production, and you will learn the skills, gain the behind-the-scenes knowledge and meet people."
Ragnhild Menes, Director of Kongsberg Jazzfestival, agrees: "No jobs are too small. Take all opportunities to get experience. Talk to people and never stop being curious about the music - that's very important.”
This can present challenges with income, which Danielle Oosterop, a booking agent, acknowledges: "Financially, it's really hard to start… So maybe do it a few days a week to start with, alongside another job."
Sound engineer Nóra Szalóki started by doing sound for a band without any relevant experience and improved over time, later completing a vocational course alongside hands-on work. "Becoming a really good sound engineer needs hard work, lots of studying, tons of blood, sweat and tears, but in the end it's worth it!"
"You can't start from the top”, says Annamaija Saarela, CEO of Livelaboratorio Tampere, “so create your own path and be capable of doing multiple roles… Avoid a narrow focus. You have to understand how it all works."
2. Build your network — and give as much as you take
Building relationships is described as essential at every level and in every role. Pelin Opcin advises: "Remember every single person you meet and keep in contact and value those relationships."
Although much contact is by email and messaging now, in-person relationships are still key. “When I first met organisers in person, it started to click - ideas flowed, networks grew,” says agent Malwina Witkowska. She adds: “Have good relationships with everyone, don't think someone is above or below you. Be kind to everyone - you can't do this work by yourself, it's work with people, collaborations, mutual connections.”
Networks, both formal and informal, are also a source of mutual support. Nadin Deventer advises people to "build up a good network - we need to support each other and to be there for each other as this is a lifelong journey." She says it was her international network that gave her the courage to go for it as artistic director for JazzFest Berlin.
“Many people understand networking to be about what they can gain from it, but networking is about give and take", points out jazz PR, Judith Kobus. Being well-networked can also help with problem-solving and learning. Annamaija Saarela describes the benefits: “The best way to learn about new music, about how to develop your project, is to listen to your peers… everyone brings different strengths and knowledge to share, and I can give back some of my learning and skills too.”
As a young professional, Malwina Witkowska echoes this: "Find all the programmes, talk to people, make connections and friendships. And ask for advice, it's crucial to learn from more experienced people."
Curator and producer Martel Ollerenshaw has designed talent development programmes, and is clear about their value: "They help demystify the sector and give artists the opportunities and networks they need to build a sustainable career. It's a long-term investment in artists and their creative practice and involves lots of talking, sharing information and building relationships.”
3. Be bold. Fail better.
The creative music world can be tough. Our interviewees encourage young people to develop a thick skin, not to take setbacks personally, to learn from failure and to keep going. Janine Irons, co-founder of Tomorrow's Warriors, sets out a clear imperative: "Be bold, be fearless, be a warrior!”
"Just go for it,” adds Malwina Witkowska. “Try it out and don't be afraid to fail. I failed a lot, and I'm still learning. That's how you learn best..." Manager and booking agent, Amelie Salembier, advises: "Face all the difficulties when they come. Don't push them back, as later it becomes more difficult to deal with. That's a valuable lesson for life too."
Nadin Deventer has a specific request for all of us: "Let's talk more about our failures. We only hear about the success stories, but we can learn so much by sharing our failures, too. I learned so much from the struggles I faced and am still facing."
Ragnhild Menes reflects on how gender conditioning can come into play: "Get rid of that 'good girl syndrome.' Don't care so much about what others might think. Don't be so afraid of failing. Don't stop having fun with what you do. I have to keep reminding myself of this advice even today. I wish someone had said this to me 20 years ago."
4. Find your voice
For artists, one theme above all others runs through these interviews: know who you are musically and develop something that is genuinely your own.
"Try to find your musical voice, something that is unique to you," says Sunna Gunnlaugs. Sun-Mi Hong goes further: "Standing strong and knowing who you are is so important. Don't try to be different, but really try to be you. It sounds similar, but it's a completely different thing.” She continues: “ Musicians want to be special and want to be recognised as soon as possible, but the most important thing is to develop your own personal colour, and that is a difficult but rewarding journey."
Anneleen Boehme describes what it took to get there: "For a very long time, I've tried to fit in and be cool and make jazz that was hip. But ultimately it didn't work for me. The only thing that works for me is to write and play whatever comes out of me."
This means resisting external pressures. Julie Campiche is direct about this: "Don't create for the algorithm." Janine Irons says: “Be as good as you can be and always be true to yourself. Be authentic, don’t be driven by the market.” Joanna Duda advises: "Don't get sucked into all the social media and don't decide your value is about how many followers you have. Remember your core purpose, and keep doing it, no matter what."
Rita Marcotulli, whose career has spanned decades, puts it simply: "Play everything! There shouldn't be any discrimination of music genres." Nikki Iles shares a similar idea: "Be very open about music. It might not be jazz that informs your jazz."
The power of authenticity is important to those who aren’t artists too. Malwina Witkowska talks about building her agency on her own terms: "I'm trying to be myself in an industry that's been shaped in a certain way for years... I want to work from my heart. So it's challenging when people don't value my ideas like they might from a male agent. But once they understand my values and passion for these artists... that changes their perspective."
5. Be patient, stay curious
Nobody arrives overnight. Danielle Oosterop is honest about the early days of building a career as an agent: "Be patient because it really takes a while before you actually have results.” Malwina Witkowska adds, "As a booking agent, you rarely get instant replies to your emails, and it takes time to build your network… If you work hard for something, it will eventually work out.”
Rita Marcotulli, whose career has spanned decades, believes that "you never arrive. The more you play, the more you know that you don't know anything. Because it's infinite and it's incredible."
Being infinitely curious about the music, and about what you don't yet know, comes up repeatedly. As Annamaija Saarela puts it: "Above all, be curious. You have to be curious about the music and the field you are working in."
Joanna Duda has an unexpected method for staying curious: "An unusual way that I find inspiration is going to a concert of a band that you're not a fan of. Surprisingly, this can provide more inspiration than the other way around. If I hear musical clichés, it makes me think, what would I do to make this music more interesting to me? Somehow, it releases a creative process in me."
6. Finally…
Nadin Deventer brings together much of our interviewees’ advice in her exhortation to: "Think big and fly high, find your voice and be different, take a stand and responsibility, challenge yourself and others, take risks, and embrace the risk to fail and fail better next time.”
And as a caveat, Mingo Rajandi says. "I think that you can't give advice to anyone who isn't ready to take the advice... When we are young, it's just impossible to understand some things if you haven't personally been through a certain number of experiences, whether they are failures or crises..."
"Instead”, she adds, “ask young people questions, and make them think about what they want, get them to visualise their dreams, analyse themselves and the reality. If you're asked a question, then you're forced to go deep inside yourself and answer that question for yourself."
Perhaps that's the starting point. Ask yourself the big questions about what you want and why. And the rest follows from that.
Discover more:
- Listen to Take Note, our Women to the Fore playlist - sharing tracks from female and non-binary artists recommended by our interviewees.
- Read the #WomenToTheFore interviews
