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What struck me wasn't just the talent of each but the common threads woven through their stories. "You have to be ten times better than the guys" was a sentiment that emerged repeatedly. Stories of constantly proving themselves, being underestimated or overlooked, or mistaken for someone's girlfriend or a junior colleague.
Yet there are clear signs of change. Women in their fifties and sixties highlighted the lack of female role models when starting out. Now, women are more visible in leadership roles and on stages. Across generations, these women created their own opportunities, setting up agencies, publishing companies, and producing companies, building supportive networks along the way.
Whether it's Anneleen Boehme describing her bass as "a solid rock which I can always lean on" or Sun-Mi Hong finding "a new friend" in her drums, these weren’t just conversations about careers but also about deep connections to music.
Early experiences
Early cultural experiences shaped many of these women's paths. Many learned musical instruments as children or had powerful encounters with live music. Joanna Duda’s description of being taken to big gigs as a small child was especially memorable.
Several had musicians in their immediate families; bass player Anneleen Boehme's parents were classical musicians. These stories weren’t universal. Sun-Mi Hong’s path required real determination. She had to persuade her parents that music was a viable career, and when finally allowed drum lessons at 17, had just one year to prove herself by gaining a place at music school.
Cross-cultural experiences proved transformative too. Nadin Deventer arranged her own high school exchange from Germany to France. Sun-Mi Hong moved from South Korea to Amsterdam at 20, despite not speaking English or Dutch. Malwina Witkowska went from Poland to Norway, while Sunna Gunnlaugs left Iceland to study in New York. These experiences built resilience and adaptability.
The brotherhood of jazz
Finding ways to navigate male-dominated environments was an unavoidable reality for most. Sound engineer Nóra Szalóki described how her skills were scrutinised more than those of her male colleagues, while composer and band leader Mingo Rajandi faced male musicians treating her with less respect, arriving unprepared and late for rehearsals. Pianist Sunna Gunnlaugs left one disruptive musician at a bus stop during a US tour.
No example was more stark than the noisy backlash Nadin Deventer faced when announced as the new artistic director of Jazzfest Berlin in 2018, extending beyond the jazz scene to national media. This connects to what agent Amelie Salembier called "a brotherhood thing," noting that men with power in jazz "find good women artists because they have no choice, but I'd like them to include their female colleagues in discussions, dinners…but also in all that info that they only share with their friends."
There are signs of generational change. Sun-Mi Hong reflected: "I feel that by being in this generation, I got lucky. People are more vocal about these issues now. I know women from the previous generation well and admire them for surviving—like wheat growing from concrete."
However, increased visibility stirred mixed feelings. Annelene Boehme commented: "I'm glad that there's been this movement going on for women in jazz, and I feel that there's a lot more women coming forward… But it also has this side that I don't like. Sometimes I feel that I'm being asked to play, because I'm a woman, and I don't want that."
Intersecting identities
The challenges multiply when gender intersects with other aspects of identity. Janine Irons, co-founder of Tomorrow's Warriors, said: "If you're a woman there are enough barriers, and if you're a Black woman, there are even more." Her organisation supports musicians from underrepresented backgrounds, particularly Black artists and women.
For Sun-Mi Hong, being "female and from an Asian country in Europe" means constant calibration: "I have to be very good at what I do, the right balance of being good and female and Asian." She describes working especially hard to ensure she's valued for her musicianship.
Crisis as catalyst: forging new models
In response to these challenges, many women created their own models. Sunna Gunnlaugs established Freyjujazz in Iceland, a festival designed to increase women's visibility in jazz: "I figured that women felt like the scene wasn't open to them. So I started Freyjujazz as a concert series, to create some opportunities."
External crises became unexpected catalysts. Joanna Duda described how the pandemic forced reassessment: "Before it, I was so busy with gigs and overwhelmed. I didn't know how to stop." The break gave her space to develop "as a human, not only a musician” leading to improved health and better music-making.
For Sun-Mi Hong, starting in a new country was a catalyst for her creativity: "It was difficult to communicate and that made it harder to make friends. You're homesick and it's energy-intensive to try to understand and connect with people." Unable to express herself through language, she found her voice through composition.
Many of the women refused to be limited by existing structures. Malwina Witkowska, founder of booking agency No Earplugs, exemplifies this: "I'm trying to be myself in an industry that's been shaped in a certain way for years…I don't want to become some serious, male-shaped agent. I want to work from my heart. So it's challenging when people don't value my ideas like they might from a male agent. But once they understand my values and passion for these artists…that changes their perspective."
Importance of networks and mentors
Unsurprisingly, building strong networks and access to mentorship proved crucial. Anneleen Boehme credited her manager Maaike Wuyts as a mentor who showed her path. Mingo Rajandi valued Martel Ollerenshaw for "asking questions without trying to lead me anywhere."
Others noted the absence of mentors. Nadin Deventer spoke of being "one of very few women and also a mother, I didn't have a mentor to help me find my way." Janine Irons regrets not having a mentor, and now mentors young artists herself.
All the women in programming, producing and managing roles talked about how significant international networks were to their work. Nadin Deventer advised: "Build up a good network. We need to support each other...as this is a lifelong journey. Being part of an international network gave me the courage to go for it as Artistic Director of Jazzfest Berlin."
Annamaija Saarela, who runs a venue in Finland, agreed: "It's a live and ongoing learning process and the best way to learn about new music, about how to develop your project, is to listen to your peers."
Networks matter to artists too. Sunna Gunnlaugs said of collaborating with other women: "When I meet these other European women, I feel that I'm seeing my sisters. There's great connection and inspiration with them."
A balancing act
When I started planning these interviews, I was adamant about one thing. I wouldn’t ask anyone about combining parenthood with career, certain that men weren't facing similar questions.
Some women raised it themselves. Nadin Deventer became a mother at a young age and felt a real lack of solidarity: "It was always implied that combining family and work was my own problem to solve, and when I was given opportunities it was on the proviso that if I couldn't manage it, the role wouldn't continue." Despite these challenges, she later became Jazzfest Berlin's first female artistic director.
Amelie Salembier advocated systemic change: "We need to put more support in place for artists who want to have a family, and encourage women studying in conservatoires to choose performing careers over teaching because they will be supported if they have children."
Geography matters too. Annamaijja Saarela acknowledged being lucky within Finland's Nordic model, where state support eases work-family balance.
Qualities for success
The interviewees shared some fundamental qualities that underpinned their success. Annamaija Saarela emphasised the value of curiosity: "Above all, be curious. You have to be curious about the music and the field you are working in."
Their approach to failure was striking. Nadin Deventer reflected: "Let's talk more about our failures. We only hear about the success stories but we can learn so much by sharing our failures too."
Festival Director Ragnhild Menes, wished she could tell her younger self: “Get rid of that ‘good girl syndrome’. Don't care so much about what others might think. Don't be so afraid of failing. Don't stop having fun with what you do.”
Building genuine relationships was another consistent theme. Malwina Witkowska noted: "You never know who will help you. Someone you meet as a volunteer may become head of a festival one day. Have good relationships with everyone.”
Sunna Gunlaugs was even more direct: "Have good relationships with the people around you... Be nice.. and you will get a lot more work if you're a positive influence. If you're a great musician but a bit of a dick, nobody will want to work with you."
Several stressed the importance of being extremely organised yet flexible and understanding the broader context they’re working in. As Annamaija Saarela said: "Organisations and teams are often small and you have to be ready to turn your hand to many things... Avoid a narrow focus—don't be like a horse with blinkers."
Janine Irons captured the qualities of courage and persistence evident in these interviews, when she said: "Be bold, be fearless, be a warrior! Don't be scared, just keep pressing forward... be as good as you can be and always be true to yourself. Be authentic."
Final thoughts
Reflecting on these seventeen conversations, there's so much more to say. Each interview offered fascinating insights, but collectively they reveal even more.
These women didn't adapt to existing structures; they transformed them, often out of necessity rather than choice, creating new opportunities for themselves and others.
There's a clear generational shift evident, with older women recalling few role models and isolation, while younger women acknowledge standing on their predecessors' shoulders. Yet across generations, women still feel they must be better than men to receive equal recognition and opportunities.
Looking forward, the creative music sector must continue evolving. As Martel Ollerenshaw noted, “As someone who operates in a postcolonial world, I found it interesting that these discussions [in the sector] were very much focused on gender. That's important, but we need to think more broadly about inclusion.”
There are still barriers to dismantle and an imperative to build genuinely open networks that mean everyone's talents can flourish. The future of creative music depends on it.
Discover more:
The Women to the Fore series is inclusive of trans-women as well as non-binary and gender-fluid people who are comfortable in a space that centres the experience of women.
In Their Own Words: Women on the frontline of jazz and creative music
Tamsin Curror, writer of our Women to the Fore series, reflects on the themes and insights emerging from her interviews with seventeen women across the European jazz and creative music landscape
Seventeen conversations with seventeen women - musicians, composers, sound engineers, festival directors, booking agents and more, spanning Iceland to Hungary. Over the last two years, I’ve had the privilege of speaking to women across the creative music sector, as part of EJN’s Women to the Fore series.What struck me wasn't just the talent of each but the common threads woven through their stories. "You have to be ten times better than the guys" was a sentiment that emerged repeatedly. Stories of constantly proving themselves, being underestimated or overlooked, or mistaken for someone's girlfriend or a junior colleague.
Yet there are clear signs of change. Women in their fifties and sixties highlighted the lack of female role models when starting out. Now, women are more visible in leadership roles and on stages. Across generations, these women created their own opportunities, setting up agencies, publishing companies, and producing companies, building supportive networks along the way.
Whether it's Anneleen Boehme describing her bass as "a solid rock which I can always lean on" or Sun-Mi Hong finding "a new friend" in her drums, these weren’t just conversations about careers but also about deep connections to music.
Early experiences
Early cultural experiences shaped many of these women's paths. Many learned musical instruments as children or had powerful encounters with live music. Joanna Duda’s description of being taken to big gigs as a small child was especially memorable.
Several had musicians in their immediate families; bass player Anneleen Boehme's parents were classical musicians. These stories weren’t universal. Sun-Mi Hong’s path required real determination. She had to persuade her parents that music was a viable career, and when finally allowed drum lessons at 17, had just one year to prove herself by gaining a place at music school.
Cross-cultural experiences proved transformative too. Nadin Deventer arranged her own high school exchange from Germany to France. Sun-Mi Hong moved from South Korea to Amsterdam at 20, despite not speaking English or Dutch. Malwina Witkowska went from Poland to Norway, while Sunna Gunnlaugs left Iceland to study in New York. These experiences built resilience and adaptability.
The brotherhood of jazz
Finding ways to navigate male-dominated environments was an unavoidable reality for most. Sound engineer Nóra Szalóki described how her skills were scrutinised more than those of her male colleagues, while composer and band leader Mingo Rajandi faced male musicians treating her with less respect, arriving unprepared and late for rehearsals. Pianist Sunna Gunnlaugs left one disruptive musician at a bus stop during a US tour.
No example was more stark than the noisy backlash Nadin Deventer faced when announced as the new artistic director of Jazzfest Berlin in 2018, extending beyond the jazz scene to national media. This connects to what agent Amelie Salembier called "a brotherhood thing," noting that men with power in jazz "find good women artists because they have no choice, but I'd like them to include their female colleagues in discussions, dinners…but also in all that info that they only share with their friends."
There are signs of generational change. Sun-Mi Hong reflected: "I feel that by being in this generation, I got lucky. People are more vocal about these issues now. I know women from the previous generation well and admire them for surviving—like wheat growing from concrete."
However, increased visibility stirred mixed feelings. Annelene Boehme commented: "I'm glad that there's been this movement going on for women in jazz, and I feel that there's a lot more women coming forward… But it also has this side that I don't like. Sometimes I feel that I'm being asked to play, because I'm a woman, and I don't want that."
Intersecting identities
The challenges multiply when gender intersects with other aspects of identity. Janine Irons, co-founder of Tomorrow's Warriors, said: "If you're a woman there are enough barriers, and if you're a Black woman, there are even more." Her organisation supports musicians from underrepresented backgrounds, particularly Black artists and women.
For Sun-Mi Hong, being "female and from an Asian country in Europe" means constant calibration: "I have to be very good at what I do, the right balance of being good and female and Asian." She describes working especially hard to ensure she's valued for her musicianship.
Crisis as catalyst: forging new models
In response to these challenges, many women created their own models. Sunna Gunnlaugs established Freyjujazz in Iceland, a festival designed to increase women's visibility in jazz: "I figured that women felt like the scene wasn't open to them. So I started Freyjujazz as a concert series, to create some opportunities."
External crises became unexpected catalysts. Joanna Duda described how the pandemic forced reassessment: "Before it, I was so busy with gigs and overwhelmed. I didn't know how to stop." The break gave her space to develop "as a human, not only a musician” leading to improved health and better music-making.
For Sun-Mi Hong, starting in a new country was a catalyst for her creativity: "It was difficult to communicate and that made it harder to make friends. You're homesick and it's energy-intensive to try to understand and connect with people." Unable to express herself through language, she found her voice through composition.
Many of the women refused to be limited by existing structures. Malwina Witkowska, founder of booking agency No Earplugs, exemplifies this: "I'm trying to be myself in an industry that's been shaped in a certain way for years…I don't want to become some serious, male-shaped agent. I want to work from my heart. So it's challenging when people don't value my ideas like they might from a male agent. But once they understand my values and passion for these artists…that changes their perspective."
Importance of networks and mentors
Unsurprisingly, building strong networks and access to mentorship proved crucial. Anneleen Boehme credited her manager Maaike Wuyts as a mentor who showed her path. Mingo Rajandi valued Martel Ollerenshaw for "asking questions without trying to lead me anywhere."
Others noted the absence of mentors. Nadin Deventer spoke of being "one of very few women and also a mother, I didn't have a mentor to help me find my way." Janine Irons regrets not having a mentor, and now mentors young artists herself.
All the women in programming, producing and managing roles talked about how significant international networks were to their work. Nadin Deventer advised: "Build up a good network. We need to support each other...as this is a lifelong journey. Being part of an international network gave me the courage to go for it as Artistic Director of Jazzfest Berlin."
Annamaija Saarela, who runs a venue in Finland, agreed: "It's a live and ongoing learning process and the best way to learn about new music, about how to develop your project, is to listen to your peers."
Networks matter to artists too. Sunna Gunnlaugs said of collaborating with other women: "When I meet these other European women, I feel that I'm seeing my sisters. There's great connection and inspiration with them."
A balancing act
When I started planning these interviews, I was adamant about one thing. I wouldn’t ask anyone about combining parenthood with career, certain that men weren't facing similar questions.
Some women raised it themselves. Nadin Deventer became a mother at a young age and felt a real lack of solidarity: "It was always implied that combining family and work was my own problem to solve, and when I was given opportunities it was on the proviso that if I couldn't manage it, the role wouldn't continue." Despite these challenges, she later became Jazzfest Berlin's first female artistic director.
Amelie Salembier advocated systemic change: "We need to put more support in place for artists who want to have a family, and encourage women studying in conservatoires to choose performing careers over teaching because they will be supported if they have children."
Geography matters too. Annamaijja Saarela acknowledged being lucky within Finland's Nordic model, where state support eases work-family balance.
Qualities for success
The interviewees shared some fundamental qualities that underpinned their success. Annamaija Saarela emphasised the value of curiosity: "Above all, be curious. You have to be curious about the music and the field you are working in."
Their approach to failure was striking. Nadin Deventer reflected: "Let's talk more about our failures. We only hear about the success stories but we can learn so much by sharing our failures too."
Festival Director Ragnhild Menes, wished she could tell her younger self: “Get rid of that ‘good girl syndrome’. Don't care so much about what others might think. Don't be so afraid of failing. Don't stop having fun with what you do.”
Building genuine relationships was another consistent theme. Malwina Witkowska noted: "You never know who will help you. Someone you meet as a volunteer may become head of a festival one day. Have good relationships with everyone.”
Sunna Gunlaugs was even more direct: "Have good relationships with the people around you... Be nice.. and you will get a lot more work if you're a positive influence. If you're a great musician but a bit of a dick, nobody will want to work with you."
Several stressed the importance of being extremely organised yet flexible and understanding the broader context they’re working in. As Annamaija Saarela said: "Organisations and teams are often small and you have to be ready to turn your hand to many things... Avoid a narrow focus—don't be like a horse with blinkers."
Janine Irons captured the qualities of courage and persistence evident in these interviews, when she said: "Be bold, be fearless, be a warrior! Don't be scared, just keep pressing forward... be as good as you can be and always be true to yourself. Be authentic."
Final thoughts
Reflecting on these seventeen conversations, there's so much more to say. Each interview offered fascinating insights, but collectively they reveal even more.
These women didn't adapt to existing structures; they transformed them, often out of necessity rather than choice, creating new opportunities for themselves and others.
There's a clear generational shift evident, with older women recalling few role models and isolation, while younger women acknowledge standing on their predecessors' shoulders. Yet across generations, women still feel they must be better than men to receive equal recognition and opportunities.
Looking forward, the creative music sector must continue evolving. As Martel Ollerenshaw noted, “As someone who operates in a postcolonial world, I found it interesting that these discussions [in the sector] were very much focused on gender. That's important, but we need to think more broadly about inclusion.”
There are still barriers to dismantle and an imperative to build genuinely open networks that mean everyone's talents can flourish. The future of creative music depends on it.
Discover more:
- Listen to Take Note, our Women to the Fore playlist - sharing tracks from female and non-binary artists recommended by our interviewees.
- Read the #WomenToTheFore interviews
The Women to the Fore series is inclusive of trans-women as well as non-binary and gender-fluid people who are comfortable in a space that centres the experience of women.
